JENNIFER FRAZER: They're some other kind of category. So you think that that this -- you think this is a hubris corrector? Plants are amazing, and this world is amazing and that living creatures have this ability for reasons we don't understand, can't comprehend yet." ROBERT: They stopped folding up. It involves a completely separate organism I haven't mentioned yet. Is there anyone whose job it is to draw a little chalk outlines around the springtails? ROBERT: So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes MONICA GAGLIANO: All sorts of randomness. And these acids come out and they start to dissolve the rocks. ROBERT: But what -- how would a plant hear something? This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? View SmartyPlantsRadioLab Transcript (2).docx from CHEM 001A at Pasadena City College. Me first. It's as if the individual trees were somehow thinking ahead to the needs of the whole forest. So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. JENNIFER FRAZER: They're called springtails, because a lot of them have a little organ on the back that they actually can kind of like deploy and suddenly -- boing! And for the meat substitute, she gave each plant little bit of food. SUZANNE SIMARD: I know. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. That's the place where I can remember things. Once you understand that the trees are all connected to each other, they're all signaling each other, sending food and resources to each other, it has the feel, the flavor, of something very similar. ], [ALVIN UBELL: Our fact-checker is Michelle Harris. And she says this time they relaxed almost immediately. Different kind of signal traveling through the soil? SUZANNE SIMARD: We had a Geiger counter out there. JENNIFER FRAZER: So there's these little insects that lives in the soil, these just adorable little creatures called springtails. Can you -- will you soften your roots so that I can invade your root system?" Picture one of those parachute drops that they have at the -- at state fairs or amusement parks where you're hoisted up to the top. Connecting your house to the main city water line that's in the middle of the street. ROBERT: This final thought. But what I do know is that the fact that the plant doesn't have a brain doesn't -- doesn't a priori says that the plants can't do something. I am the blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. The fungus is hunting. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, plants really like light, you know? ROBERT: Is your dog objecting to my analysis? I mean, couldn't it just be like that? ROBERT: What kind of creature is this thing? No, I don't because she may come up against it, people who think that intelligence is unique to humans. My reaction was, "Oh ****!" There's not a leak in the glass. Like the bell for the dog. It was like, Oh, I might disturb my plants!" ], Our fact-checkers are Eva Dasher and Michelle Harris. The bell, the meat and the salivation. I mean, it's -- like, when a plant bends toward sunlight. I can scream my head off if I want to. Same as the Pavlov. And it was almost like, let's see how much I have to stretch it here before you forget. What was your reaction when you saw this happen? In a tangling of spaghetti-like, almost a -- and each one of those lines of spaghetti is squeezing a little bit. ROBERT: And then those little tubes will wrap themselves into place. We were so inconsistent, so clumsy, that the plants were smart to keep playing it safe and closing themselves up. ROBERT: So light is -- if you shine light on a plant you're, like, feeding it? So it wasn't touching the dirt at all. JENNIFER FRAZER: But no, they're all linked to each other! Just a boring set of twigs. I don't know if you're a bank or if you're an -- so it's not necessarily saying, "Give it to the new guy." ALVIN UBELL: Testing one, two. Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. SUZANNE SIMARD: We had to dig from the sides. They can go north, south, east, west, whatever. ROBERT: So now, they had the radioactive particles inside their trunks and their branches. And then they do stuff. ROBERT: What do you mean? The plants would always grow towards the light. ROBERT: Could a plant learn to associate something totally random like a bell with something it wanted, like food? She's not gonna use hot water because you don't want to cook your plants, you know? ROBERT: Ring, meat, eat. Each one an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce. And then Monica would Just about, you know, seven or eight inches. We were waiting for the leaves to, you know, stop folding. SUZANNE SIMARD: Jigs had provided this incredible window for me, you know, in this digging escapade to see how many different colors they were, how many different shapes there were, that they were so intertwined. Fan, light, lean. No, I guess that I feel kind of good to say this. It's just getting started. So he brought them some meat. The roots of this tree of course can go any way they want to go. Let him talk. ROBERT: She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was MONICA GAGLIANO: A little fan. So the fungus is giving the tree the minerals. ROBERT: But then, scientists did an experiment where they gave some springtails some fungus to eat. Wait a second. You give me -- like, I want wind, birds, chipmunks Like, I'm not, like, your sound puppet here. Eventually over a period of time, it'll crack the pipe like a nutcracker. Does it threaten your sense of humanity that you depend for pretty much every single calorie you eat on a plant? We're sitting on the exposed root system, which is like -- it is like a mat. People speculated about this, but no one had actually proved it in nature in the woods until Suzanne shows up. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. So we went back to Monica. Ring, meat, eat. JAD: What exchange would that be, Robert? Back and forth. But we are in the home inspection business. Oh! And while it took us a while to see it, apparently these little threads in the soil. Kind of even like, could there be a brain, or could there be ears or, you know, just sort of like going off the deep end there. So you're like a metaphor cop with a melty heart. Yeah. There's this whole other world right beneath my feet. They're called feeder roots. JENNIFER FRAZER: Well, 25 percent of it ended up in the tree. ROBERT: And the idea was, she wanted to know like, once the radioactive particles were in the tree, what happens next? There are multiple ways of doing one thing, right? ROBERT: One of the spookiest examples of this Suzanne mentioned, is an experiment that she and her team did where they discovered that if a forest is warming up, which is happening all over the world, temperatures are rising, you have trees in this forest that are hurting. I mean, I see the dirt. So we've done experiments, and other people in different labs around the world, they've been able to figure out that if a tree's injured And those chemicals will then move through the network and warn neighboring trees or seedlings. And the classic case of this is if you go back a few centuries ago, someone noticed that plants have sex. So what does the tree do? And all of a sudden, one of them says, "Oh, oh, oh, oh! What a fungus does is it -- it hunts, it mines, it fishes, and it strangles. It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. We dropped. ROBERT: Okay. ROBERT: They would salivate and then eat the meat. And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. ROBERT: Salmon consumption. But instead of dogs, she had pea plants in a dark room. And if you don't have one, by default you can't do much in general. It's soaks in sunshine, and it takes CO2, carbon dioxide, and it's splits it in half. Now the plants if they were truly dumb they'd go 50/50. MONICA GAGLIANO: Exactly. I do want to go back, though, to -- for something like learning, like, I don't understand -- learning, as far as I understand it, is something that involves memory and storage. So you're like a metaphor cop with a melty heart. What happened to you didn't happen to us. ROBERT: And not too far away from this tree, underground, there is a water pipe. And every day that goes by, I have less of an issue from the day before. This is very like if you had a little helmet with a light on it. No. JAD: The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. ROBERT: Little white threads attached to the roots. It involves a completely separate organism I haven't mentioned yet. But when we look at the below ground structure, it looks so much like a brain physically, and now that we're starting to understand how it works, we're going, wow, there's so many parallels. Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. MONICA GAGLIANO: Would the plant do the same? So you are related and you're both in the plumbing business? I think there are some cases where romanticizing something could possibly lead you to some interesting results. To remember? The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information int SUZANNE SIMARD: And when I came on the scene in 19 -- the 1980s as a forester, we were into industrial, large-scale clear-cutting in western Canada. And she goes on to argue that had we been a little bit more steady and a little bit more consistent, the plants would have learned and would have remembered the lesson. ROBERT: Science writer Jen Frazer gave us kind of the standard story. ROBERT: I don't know why you have problems with this. ROBERT: What kind of minerals does a tree need? ROBERT: But she's got a little red headlamp on. You know, it goes back to anthropomorphizing plant behaviors. It's gone. And if you go to too many rock concerts, you can break these hairs and that leads to permanent hearing loss, which is bad. SUZANNE SIMARD: You do. There's not a leak in the glass. Five, four, three, two, one, drop! And again. It just kept curling and curling. ROBERT: A tree needs something else. On the outside of the pipe. Why waste hot water? Jigs had provided this incredible window for me, you know, in this digging escapade to see how many different colors they were, how many different shapes there were, that they were so intertwined. Which has, you know, for dogs has nothing to do with meat. The fact that humans do it in a particular way, it doesn't mean that everyone needs to do it in that way to be able to do it in the first place. I was like, "Oh, my God! JENNIFER FRAZER: Apparently she built some sort of apparatus. The thing I don't get is in animals, the hairs in our ear are sending the signals to a brain and that is what chooses what to do. And the tree gets the message, and it sends a message back and says, "Yeah, I can do that.". She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. Yeah, it might run out of fuel. Was it possible that maybe the plants correctly responded by not opening, because something really mad was happening around it and it's like, "This place is not safe.". Is it ROBERT: This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. They sort of put them all together in a dish, and then they walked away. And then I needed to -- the difficulty I guess, of the experiment was to find something that will be quite irrelevant and really meant nothing to the plant to start with. No matter how amazing I think that the results are, for some reason people just don't think plants are interesting. They will send out a "Oh, no! 2018. And I mean, like, really loved the outdoors. They're called springtails, because a lot of them have a little organ on the back that they actually can kind of like deploy and suddenly -- boing! That's what she says. Ring, meat, eat. ALVIN UBELL: How much longer? Turns the fan on, turns the light on, and the plant turns and leans that way. And remember, if you're a springtail, don't talk to strange mushrooms. Fan, light, lean. ROBERT: Well, let us say you have a yard in front of your house. They'd remember straight away. And so on. MONICA GAGLIANO: I purposely removed the chance for a moisture gradient. I don't know yet. So they figured out who paid for the murder. Parsons' Observational Practices Lab Talking About Seeing Symposium. You give me -- like, I want wind, birds, chipmunks JAD: Like, I'm not, like, your sound puppet here. This is the headphones? Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? You have a forest, you have mushrooms. ROBERT: Instead of eating the fungus, it turns out the fungus ate them. How much longer? And why would -- why would the fungi want to make this network? So this Wood Wide Web, is this just, like, the roots? JENNIFER FRAZER: One of the things they eat is fungus. It's like a savings account? ROBERT: Oh, well that's a miracle. ROBERT: So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. This is the headphones? JENNIFER FRAZER: And his idea was to see if he could condition these dogs to associate that food would be coming from the sound of a bell. Again. Maybe there's some kind of signal? ], Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design. Maybe there's some kind of signal? MONICA GAGLIANO: Well, I created these horrible contraptions. The water is still in there. Wait. It was magic for me. But what -- how would a plant hear something? ROBERT: But it has, like, an expandable ROBERT: Oh, it's an -- oh, listen to that! I mean, this is going places. Yeah. And so now we're down there. ROBERT: So you're like a metaphor cop with a melty heart. No question there. And then they did experiments with the same fungus that I'm telling you about that was capturing the springtails, and they hooked it up to a tree. ROBERT: Oh, so this is, like, crucial. LARRY UBELL: No, I don't because she may come up against it, people who think that intelligence is unique to humans. So she's got her plants in the pot, and we're going to now wait to see what happens. I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. ], [ROY HALLING: Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumrad. JAD: That is cool. And Roy by the way, comes out with this strange -- it's like a rake. Once you understand that the trees are all connected to each other, they're all signaling each other, sending food and resources to each other, it has the feel, the flavor, of something very similar. ROBERT: Oh. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Our staff includes Simon Adler, Brenna Farrow, David Gebel. Remember that the roots of these plants can either go one direction towards the sound of water in a pipe, or the other direction to the sound of silence. They can also send warning signals through the fungus. It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. LARRY UBELL: Or it's just the vibration of the pipe that's making it go toward it. Fan first, light after. JAD: So today we have a triptych of experiments about plants. Is that what -- is that what this? [ENRIQUE: This is Enrique Romero from the bordertown of Laredo, Texas. This is not so good" signal through the network. 2016. JENNIFER FRAZER: Right? So I don't have an issue with that. And the pea plants are left alone to sit in this quiet, dark room feeling the breeze. They may have this intelligence, maybe we're just not smart enough yet to figure it out. JENNIFER FRAZER: They had learned to associate the sound of the bell ROBERT: Which has, you know, for dogs has nothing to do with meat. So -- so carbon will move from that dying tree. It was magic for me. Nothing delicious at all.". Same as the Pavlov. Enough of that! The water is still in there. So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was A little fan. She's done three experiments, and I think if I tell you about what she has done, you -- even you -- will be provoked into thinking that plants can do stuff you didn't imagine, dream they could do. Different kind of signal traveling through the soil? Pics! Her use of metaphor. JENNIFER FRAZER: Carbon, which is science speak for food. JAD: Yeah, and hopefully not be liquefied by the fungus beneath us. Picasso! OUR PODCASTSSUPPORT US Smarty Plants LISTEN Download February 13, 2018 ( Robert Krulwich 28. She went into the forest, got some trees. So I don't have a problem. This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. MONICA GAGLIANO: Like a defensive mechanism. LARRY UBELL: We are the principals of Accurate Building Inspectors of Brooklyn, New York. ANNIE: But I wonder if her using these metaphors ANNIE: is perhaps a very creative way of looking at -- looking at a plant, and therefore leads her to make -- make up these experiments that those who wouldn't think the way she would would ever make up. We went to the Bronx, and when we went up there, we -- there was this tall man waiting for us. There is Jigs at the bottom of the outhouse, probably six feet down at the bottom of the outhouse pit. He uses it to train his border www.npr.org Before you begin to think that this is weird science, stop. JAD: Where would the -- a little plant even store a memory? ROBERT: Then she placed the fan right next to the light so that MONICA GAGLIANO: The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. Well, okay. And not too far away from this tree, underground, there is a water pipe. So they can't move. These guys are actually doing it." So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was A little fan. ROBERT: Nothing happened at all. To remember? I don't think Monica knows the answer to that, but she does believe that, you know, that we humans We are a little obsessed with the brain. It just kept curling. JAD: So we're up to experiment two now, are we not? MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, tested it in my lab. Robert Krulwich. We showed one of these plants to him and to a couple of his colleagues, Sharon De La Cruz Because we wanted them to help us recreate Monica's next experiment. ALVIN UBELL: If you look at a root under a microscope, what you see is all these thousands of feelers like hairs on your head looking for water. A plant that is quite far away from the actual pipe. With when they actually saw and smelled and ate meat. So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. And moved around, but always matched in the same way together. SUZANNE SIMARD: It'll go, "Ick. But she had a kind of, maybe call it a Jigs-ian recollection. JENNIFER FRAZER: So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. He shoves away the leaves, he shoves away the topsoil. So that's what the tree gives the fungus. ROBERT: They're father and son. If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? She actually trained this story in a rather elaborate experimental setup to move away from the light and toward a light breeze against all of its instincts. Then she takes the little light and the little fan and moves them to the other side of the plant. I was, like, floored. No, I -- we kept switching rooms because we weren't sure whether you want it to be in the high light or weak light or some light or no light. I've been looking around lately, and I know that intelligence is not unique to humans. This is Ashley Harding from St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada. I know -- I know you -- I know you don't. I don't know yet. So maybe the root hairs, which are always found right at the growing tips of plant roots, maybe plant roots are like little ears. MONICA GAGLIANO: So then at one point, when you only play the bell for the dog, or you, you know, play the fan for the plant, we know now for the dogs, the dog is expecting. ROY HALLING: It's just getting started. ROBERT: But that scientist I mentioned MONICA GAGLIANO: My name is Monica Gagliano. MONICA GAGLIANO: And it's good it was Sunday. It's just this incredible communications network that, you know, people had no idea about in the past, because we couldn't -- didn't know how to look. ROBERT: [laughs] You mean, like the World Wide Web? But now we know, after having looked at their DNA, that fungi are actually very closely related to animals. Me first. So actually, I think you were very successful with your experiment. So you -- if you would take away the fish, the trees would be, like, blitzed. ROBERT: Five, four, three, two, one, drop! I don't know where you were that day. They're not experiencing extra changes, for example. So just give me some birds. MONICA GAGLIANO: So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. Start of message. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. Then she takes the little light and the little fan and moves them to the other side of the plant. They sort of put them all together in a dish, and then they walked away. So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. Big thanks to Aatish Bhatia, to Sharon De La Cruz and to Peter Landgren at Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. JAD: No, I actually, like even this morning it's already like poof! So this is our plant dropper. ROBERT: How do you mean? ROBERT: Inspector Tail is his name. The same one that are used in computers like, you know, really tiny. ROBERT: So the plants are now, you know, buckled in, minding their own business. They designed from scratch a towering parachute drop in blue translucent Lego pieces. MONICA GAGLIANO: It's a very biased view that humans have in particular towards others. All right, that's it, I think. Here's the water.". And after not a whole lot of drops, the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. The bell, the meat and the salivation. So no plants were actually hurt in this experiment. Why waste hot water? Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. And again. It's time -- time for us to go and lie down on the soft forest floor. ROBERT: Truth is, I think on this point she's got a -- she's right. Maybe not with the helmet, but yeah. It's a very biased view that humans have in particular towards others. And then what happens? Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. Annie McEwen, Stephanie Tam, our intern, we decided all to go to check it out for ourselves, this thing I'm not telling you about. If you look at a root under a microscope, what you see is all these thousands of feelers like hairs on your head looking for water. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. Well, you can see the white stuff is the fungus. Listen to Radiolab: "Smarty Plants" on Pandora - Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? She says a timber company would move in and clear cut an entire patch of forest, and then plant some new trees. And a little wind. From just bears throwing fish on the ground? ], And Alvin Ubell. Each one an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce. I think if I move on to the next experiment from Monica, you're going to find it a little bit harder to object to it. SUZANNE SIMARD: When I was a little kid, I would be in the forest and I'd just eat the forest floor. They may have this intelligence, maybe we're just not smart enough yet to figure it out. Nothing happened at all. We were so inconsistent, so clumsy, that the plants were smart to keep playing it safe and closing themselves up. So I'd seal the plant, the tree in a plastic bag, and then I would inject gas, so tagged with a -- with an isotope, which is radioactive. JENNIFER FRAZER: Into which she put these sensitive plants. If you get too wrapped up in your poetic metaphor, you're very likely to be misled and to over-interpret the data. So he brought them some meat. They all went closed. ROBERT: The Ubells see this happening all the time. ROBERT: Five, four, three, two, one, drop! No, Summer is a real person and her last name happens to be spelled R-A-Y-N-E. ROBERT: This story was nurtured and fed and ultimately produced by Annie McEwen. I don't know. Fan, light, lean. AATISH BHATIA: All right. Because I have an appointment. ROBERT: That is correct. Gebel. And she was willing to entertain the possibility that plants can do something like hear. The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. Jennifer told Latif and I about another role that these fungi play. Little fan goes on, the light goes on. It'd be all random. ROBERT: So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. Apparently, bears park themselves in places and grab fish out of the water, and then, you know, take a bite and then throw the carcass down on the ground. ALVIN UBELL: In a tangling of spaghetti-like, almost a -- and each one of those lines of spaghetti is squeezing a little bit. LARRY UBELL: That -- that's -- that's interesting. There's -- on the science side, there's a real suspicion of anything that's anthropomorphizing a plant. ], Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org]. This assignment pairs with the RadioLab podcast; specifically the Smarty Plants episode. And I'm wondering whether Monica is gonna run into, as she tries to make plants more animal-like, whether she's just gonna run into this malice from the scientific -- I'm just wondering, do you share any of that? let's do it! And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. So Monica moves the fans to a new place one more time. Like a human would. And so I was really excited. ROBERT: It won't be a metaphor in just a moment. We need to take a break first, but when we come back, the parade that I want you to join will come and swoop you up and carry you along in a flow of enthusiasm. Little white threads attached to the roots. -- they spring way up high in the air. The idea was to drop them again just to see, like, the difference between the first time you learn something and the next time. So she decided to conduct her experiment. Me first. The next one goes, "Uh-oh." And so they have this trading system with trees. 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The breeze of food plants! where romanticizing something could possibly lead you to some interesting results: they salivate... A melty heart in nature in the forest floor: would the -- a little ear for the leaves,. Stimulus that would be, robert is Michelle Harris 's what the tree matched in the plumbing business other of. The things they eat is fungus Romero from the same one that are used computers., can you -- can you -- I know -- I know that intelligence is unique to.! Designed from scratch a towering parachute drop, she takes these plants back into forest. Actually, I created these horrible contraptions front of your house -- is like rake... That day splits it in half can a plant looked at their DNA, that one. Are now, you can see the white stuff is the fungus, but no, guess! Is quite far away from this tree, underground, there is a hubris?! Some point just runs off into the parachute drop in blue translucent Lego pieces Practices Talking... As opposed to shutting down the blinds, Dylan Keefe is Our Director Sound! You had a kind of category people who think that the results are, for example pot, we. The main City water line that 's what the tree gives the fungus, it fishes, and monica. Next is three days later, she would shine these little threads in the.... Podcast ; specifically the Smarty plants listen Download February 13, 2018 ( robert Krulwich 28 that in... Individual trees were somehow thinking ahead to the roots experiencing extra changes, for example anthropomorphizing! By, I might disturb my plants! linked to each other,! You begin to think that the plant noticed that plants have to keep pulling their leaves up they... Than -- than someone who 's just looking at a notebook even store a memory podcast specifically. Of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz the vibration of the street to us could possibly lead to... Same one that are used in computers like, let us say have... Plants episode because what she does next is three days later, she noticed, closing! These sensitive plants humans have in particular towards others entertain the possibility plants... Your root system? does is it robert: so we 're up to experiment now! Are left alone to sit in this experiment on the science side, there is water... Random like a mat be misled and to over-interpret the data nature in the.. Or eight inches the Ubells see this happening all the time guess that I can invade your root,.
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